Power & Protection in Relationships - YLAM240024

SPEAKER A This programme presents ways to optimise health. SPEAKER B And wellbeing when considering lifestyle changes. Please consult with your health care provider to ensure they are suitable for you. SPEAKER A Hello and welcome. I'm Kaysie Vokurka. Doctor Steven Porges, university professor and founder of the Polyvagal Theory, has devoted much of his research to understanding how our nervous system needs to feel safe in order to foster healthy social relationships. This need to feel safe and secure in our relationships can influence our behaviour in many ways. Stay with us to find out more. This is your lifestyle as medicine, a production of three ABN Australia television. It's wonderful to have you with us on this programme where we explore ways that you can shape your life. Lifestyle as medicine we've been focusing on social wellbeing and healthy relationships, and today we'll be looking at the aspects of power and protection in our relationships. We're very happy to have health psychologist Jenifer Skues with us once more to take us through this topic. Welcome to the programme, Jenifer. SPEAKER B Thanks, Kaysie. It's a good programme and we're doing the next leg of that journey, which is important. We want to know the how. SPEAKER A That's it. That's it. And we've just been talking about the dynamics of exercising power and protection in our relationships. And this dynamic is something that is driven by the need to feel safe. Can you talk to us a little bit more about this? How does this involve in our relationships? SPEAKER B Well, I don't believe it takes much to feel unsafe. I know if someone frowns at me or someone I sense is disconnected, maybe angry with me, I don't feel safe emotionally. Okay. And yet we sometimes, when we cheque things out, that's our interpretation, it's not the real problem. So. Yeah, so. But safety, particularly if you've been in relationships where they're not safe, it's hard to trust again. So we want to feel safe and protected by the person we're with, no matter what the relationship is. SPEAKER A Mm, yes. And it's when we feel that way that the relationship is really in a place where it can grow and flourish, isn't it? Because once you have dynamics where you feel hurt or threatened or that kind of thing, like, it really causes lots of problems, doesn't it? SPEAKER B It does. Puts bricks in the wall. SPEAKER A Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. SPEAKER B It actually disempowers us when we don't feel safe. And this isn't about having power over, it's about feeling empowered within the relationship. SPEAKER A Yeah. That's an important difference, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, very true. So what would you say is the ultimate source of power and protection in our relationships. SPEAKER B Okay, we're going to look at a couple of bible verses here, because these verses apply to our lives and our relationships. And if you have a look, there's Ephesians 320. Now, to him who is able to do exceedingly, abundantly above all that we ask or think according to the power that works in us. So, like I said, I feel empowered, or I feel powerless or disempowered, but the real power is God's power, which is via the holy spirit. That's where our real power comes from. And I find with this verse that when that power of God works in me, I don't ever feel unsafe. SPEAKER A Interesting. SPEAKER B No matter what the person's doing, but it makes me feel safe and secure because I feel like I'm connected to God and I'm protected. SPEAKER A That's so important because, you know, I'm sure many of us can relate to a sense of our own weakness. You know, we might have a vulnerability, yeah. A life history of failure in relationships or that sort of a thing. And we can just say, well, you know, how can I feel empowered when I know myself? You know, I'm not strong enough to do what I need to do to be empowered. And so connecting to a higher source of power in that sense is really, really vital, isn't it, to have that part? SPEAKER B Well, it's a healing process. But there's a second verse I used is Romans 831, that says, what should we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? This is where, again, that power and protection of God is evident, because it doesn't matter then what others think and do, because it will work out. Either we'll learn from it, or we'll be safe and heal from it. SPEAKER A Yeah. And I love the motive of God expressed in that verse where it's, you know, he wants to be for our best good. He wants to do what he can to help us. So that's really encouraging. SPEAKER B Yes. And that's based on his love for every one of us, his unconditional love. And we struggle to do unconditional love in relationships. We're brought up in conditions, you know, when we're growing up, I'll love you if you're a good girl, if you clean your room, if you do what your mother says or your father says, I'll love you. So it's conditional. So we learn then to go into relationships, putting conditions on it. But with God, he loves us anyway. Doesn't matter what we do. He'll love us and forgive us. But when we do the wrong thing or abuse power, then God has to wait for us to reconnect with him to give us that love that is already there. SPEAKER A Interesting. So how can we. How does this power play out in relationships the way it described before? SPEAKER B Yeah. Well, there's a couple of diagrams I've got here. One of them, they call the power game triangle, and it's triangular, and you've got three dynamics happening. And interestingly, it's this. These three dynamics are what is what they use in the soap operas to get people hooked in adrenaline rushing. And it's a formula they use, but. And then how many people grew up on soapies or watch tv movies and things that enact this? How often in our homes do we have this? Because you've got three, and we're looking at the negative, but there is a positive we can go to to try and resolve it. So it's about who's in control. So when we have a persecutor, that's anyone who controls abuses, you know, won't connect is a persecutor, and they think they're okay and we're not okay. So they want to punish us or control us in some way. So this is where it's hard, because they protect themselves. They're authoritarian. They demand obedience. You know, if you don't do that, you know, I'll hit you. Or past history shows that if I don't do that and I'm not obedient, I'm going to be punished. It's a punishment process, and it is about having power over others. Today, we refer to some of these people as narcissistic. They're very self empowered, and they expect everyone to be subservient to them. So that's what the persecutor does. And this is where, when you have a persecutor in your life, it's quite fearful. So we then do things that are inappropriate to try and survive or to fix it. And that's where in that triangle, it talks about two other we can be the victim. I'm not okay, but you're okay. So the victim is constantly being persecuted and can't see a way out. And when you have a victim, and this, usually the victimhood comes from early childhood. You know, we looked at that timeline. When you've been abused and disempowered as a child, you grow up that way believing you're not okay. There's something wrong with you. You know, we're indoctrinated with that. So everyone else is okay, but we're not. So we let people have power over us, we give out, we disempower ourself. So, and I'm sure everyone at times has been the victim, whether it be at what's happening at work or in the environment or home, we've often felt victimised. And when we're the victim, we can't fix things because it's out of our power to do that. We need help. So we rely on people, and usually people stronger than ourself, which means we're going to attract the persecutor who shows strengthen and empowerment. And often the victim gets a lot of sympathy, you know, look what they did to me. And all the friends go, oh, that's so sad. I'm sorry to hear that. So it's a way of connecting in a very negative way. Okay. And you then let others fix it. So you're going to attract the controller, in fact, someone who controls everything. That narcissistic side can go into a room of, say, if it's a male, 20 women at a group or party, and they'll pick out the three that are going to be vulnerable and be the victim. They already know by their demeanour and how they present non verbally, or they'll talk to them. They know immediately. This is the person I can target and have control over, which is a bit scary in one way, but this is why we need to stop being the victim. And that's some of the work I do to help people if they feel like they're the victim, that things always go wrong. And the other dynamic then is the rescuer. So then you've got the third dynamic and the rescuer thinks they're okay and others aren't, and they've got to fix them and rescue them. So they spend a lot of time thinking others need my help, okay, I've got to rescue them and need to be needed, because if I'm a rescuer, I'm needed. People need me because I'm helping them. Overly helpful. And by being overly helpful, we actually do control things to a degree because we insist that they do what we want them to do as we're rescuing them. And then they keep doing this and they do it and do it and do it, and then they feel used by the person, but they set themselves up for it. So now you've got this three way dynamic with the persecutor, the victim and the rescuer. And this is where we want to look for how can we get out of that? Do you see that happening when you look at that triangle? SPEAKER A Yeah, I was just thinking, as I was looking at all those different personalities described there, and I was just thinking, you know, that probably covers everyone in terms of the different types. And then. Yeah, and then each of us, you know, can fall into different elements at different times, different circumstances. So it's very interesting to put it that way, and then think about, you know, where is the balance here? Because to me, when I look at that, it seems like each one is out of balance in some direction and it needs to come back to a balance point. SPEAKER B It does. SPEAKER A So tell us more about that balance point. SPEAKER B Okay, well, first of all, you have to know, you're one of these people, you know? So. And that's one of the things I do with therapy, is help people go, well, who's in control? Is the question. And it's a question we can ask ourselves. If I'm having a hard time or a bad time, I look, who's in control? I've just let that person, that friend of mine, take control. And I said yes when I didn't want to. So it can be a small thing, but if we keep doing it, then we feel used, you see? So you can see how. Or then we up the ante and we can become a persecutor, we can switch sides. So it's not just we're born to be a persecutor or created a persecutor, and that's all we do, right? SPEAKER A So then asking the question, who's in control? Is actually quite key in understanding what dynamics are going on in a situation, because I think we can slip into this so automatically that we wouldn't even think about what's going on and then realise why we're in a mess. But that question is good. So who's in control? SPEAKER B And when I'm not coping or something's not right, I ask myself that question, who's in control? And then when I answer it, I go, right, what am I going to do about it? And this is where the skills we're going to talk about, particularly in the next session, will really give us the key to what are we going to do about it if we're caught in that triangle. But there is a discovery triangle, and that's like the counterpart to this, and you can have it. You can see that the discovery triangle has different dynamics for each of those three points. And I'm just going to sort of outline them briefly because then we'll be looking at how it manifests, teaching versus persecutor. So if we can help the persecutor to teach versus doing it in a way that we feel controlled, and that's where we're looking at boundaries and dynamics and seeing how we can work with that. But if we're a persecutor, we need to learn to teach others, not bully them or have power over them. Okay? So we explain things versus try and control it or force them to believe what we believe, and we respect the other person's point of view then, because people who are persecutors are very strong individuals. So they have to find a way of getting out of that persecution mode and not be, as, you know, like a. What can I say? Disempowered. Where. What do they do? But they can still be dynamic, but use it in a different way. Okay, and then you've got the victim, and the victim can learn versus being the victim. First of all, they have to know they're the victim. And that's one of the things I do. And then we look at. Well, how do you know you're the victim? Can you identify it? Let's look at some examples. And then part of their, what I call their homework is to go and have a look at what's happening currently in their relationships where they're feeling like the victim. And what does that look like? So they're learning to identify. And it's that mindfulness thing of stepping back and observing versus participating as the victim. Okay? So this way they can help themselves, they can learn, they can explore and discover new ways versus being the victim, and they can improve that situation. So again, it's like switching sides. And this is looking. And a lot of this is to do with as we go, is with boundaries. So this is where we can learn. How do you switch sides? The last one is mediating versus being the rescuer. So instead of rescuing, can we try to fix it? Can we mediate and give them options and have a look at how that might play out? So that means we can support the person, identify and help those in need. We give appropriate help versus control as the rescuer, and it helps settle differences. So mediation is a very powerful tool and it is a skill we can learn. Hmm. Okay, now what, when we look at all of this, the stepping over from your power game to your discovery triangle has to do with how we build our defence mechanisms, right? This is how we stay in control. So if you have a look at that diagram, that it's. We build our defences based on our early history. And in the centre is a heart. Now, that is when we think of the heart, we think of our emotions, our feelings, our emotional wellbeing. But if you look at the two terms I've got there, it's about self love, self acceptance. And I'm not talking about self centred love or self centred approach, I'm talking about a healthy self love. And we've talked about that. We love goddess and then we can love ourself. That's a healthy self love. And there's nothing wrong with loving self. If not, we don't respect ourselves, right? And can we accept ourselves? What's and all, you know? So if that is damaged in any way and that will be due to trauma, abuse, the wrong messages we're given as we are growing up, then we develop at a very young age. We have an overlay of emotions which you can see there in pain, guilt, fear and shame. So how many people here can relate to that? I was brought up with to control the child in the era I grew up in, is you give a guilt or a shame message, because then they will put up, shut up or not say anything or be quiet. And it wasn't that. This is where parents can love children, but they're brought up in a way that they use the same tools that was given to them. So guilt and shame are two. But when we feel guilty and ashamed, then we feel pain, emotional pain, we feel hurt. And then, of course, that kicks in the fourth emotion there, which is fear. So then we have guilt, shame, pain and fear overlay healthy self love and self acceptance. It's a broken heart and we want to do the repair work. And that's where. How do you protect a broken heart? How do you deal with that lack of self love, which is like a lack of confidence in yourself? It's low. Nowadays, we talk about self esteem, self worth. We don't value ourselves, we don't feel confident in what we're doing. So we work very much on that. Fear, shame, guilt. So we've got to put a layer on to stop us feeling that way. And that's where we develop these defences. We build them. We can learn defences as children because mum and dad have their defences. People, if we watch tv, it's part of the soap opera stuff that we can watch, or even cartoons. It's just amazing where all this bad modelling occurs. But certainly in our own environment, even watching the news or people, you know, who don't function well, we are learning defence mechanisms and we learn what works and what doesn't work. And some of them. SPEAKER A Sorry, just to clarify here. So these defence mechanisms, they're kind of. They're habits that we have formed in the way we respond to situations. Many of them, based on that diagram, are potentially unhealthy. But there's scope for healthy ones too. SPEAKER B Well, I believe we can develop healthy protection mechanisms to instead of being in defence mode, we are in open communication mode. It that way. Yeah, because what's happening when we defend ourselves, we're not communicating the real needs or the real problem. We don't want to show our vulnerability. And a lot of people I know, particularly bullies, actually lack confidence and self worth and self esteem. So they use bullying as a way that people won't get beyond that exterior. And then they have the power over it comes, they become the perpetrator. SPEAKER A The persecutors. SPEAKER B Yeah, the persecutor, the perpetrator. Okay. But things like the most powerful ones, like bullying, aggression, anger, these are very powerful masks. I mean, if you know someone who has a lot of anger, don't you not go near them. Yes, you go, whoa, I'm not going there. If I say that to them, they might be angry with me, we shut up. And you can see with these defences how we get the victim, the rescuer and the persecutor out of this. That's part of this dynamic. And even things like we think are okay, we use humour and the class clown who underneath it all, finds that people accept them if they tell jokes or have fun or practical jokes, and therefore it gives them a connection. But it's an unhealthy one. It's at their expense in the world. SPEAKER A So that's so interesting because obviously then these defence mechanisms are what we see on the outside or what we see front and centre when we're interacting with people or in our own lives, who we portray ourselves to be. But based on that model, it's merely a surface layer, but underneath it's covering underlying shame, hurt, fear, all of these emotional troubles which stems above that baseline of love towards oneself. Like, how is that position in your own mind about yourself at that time? SPEAKER B Absolutely. Yeah. And that's where that goes back to our early upbringing, where we've been in the dysfunction or we've learned it in different ways. Might have been in the schoolyard, it might have been at kindergarten if we were going there, might have been at home friends, you know, when we lack confidence, we can't pick healthy friendships and that just makes it worse. So you can see how it builds and then this broken heart is there. So we've got to cover it because we don't like, and no one likes feeling guilt, shame, fear or pain. It's easier to blame someone else and own it. SPEAKER A Yes. SPEAKER B But we can be the problem, if that makes sense, or make excuses. There's a few there. Avoid. It's easier to avoid. Or we trivialise something, make light of it. So it's. Oh, it's not that bad. When in actual fact it is that bad, you know, so we do things. But often when you look, isolation is a classic, particularly if you're depressed and those emotions aren't working, or you have a lot of guilt and shame, emotional pain. It's easier to avoid and isolate than it is to face people and have to deal with it. Hmm. Yeah. Because that means people, you see, they say or do things, not deliberately, but where it hits that chord in us, where we feel unsafe, we feel hurt and we personalise. That's a big one. I don't know if I've got that one up there anyway. No, I haven't. Personalisation is a big one that fits into that. When I take things personally, I'm thinking what they said to me is having a go at me or deliberately hurting me in some way. And then when I cheque it out, it wasn't that at all. It was my interpretation, based on that deeper core that seems to think everyone's having a go at me. SPEAKER A This is so fascinating to be talking about all of this in context of relationships, because many of these are issues potentially stemming from other relationships, but at the root cause of it, to bring a resolution to these problems which are impacting all of our relationships in our life, it has to stem back to really inner heart healing, doesn't it? SPEAKER B It does, it is. And that's what we're going to deal with in that last session of ours, is to be able to have a look at what is the healing process, because what we have to do is get beyond the defences to heal the heart and to deal with those past emotions that keep surfacing. And that's that past, present and future model where the past is living in the present and where we can't function, because we're so busy bouncing off of everything and putting up defences, we can't connect and get close, not just to people, but when you have defences, it's hard to connect with God as well. Then we think, God doesn't care, he's not there for me and we're just not opening that door because of the position we're in and it's not true. See, what we often think is not true, but whatever we do to protect ourself and stop that connection in a relationship is a defence of some sort. So what we have to do is look at an in road to get to the deeper core for the healing process. And that in road is there are things we can do in the here and now, but one of them is certainly through the power of God's love and healing. For people who read the word, who meditate, pray and being in nature, there's lots of things we can do to really help the process. But the biggest one is communication and that is how do I talk to people? If I'm taking it personally? How can I cheque that out now instead of just believing it? What can I ask? What can I say? So it's looking at how I communicate and finding a way of doing it that you're able to. One person might be able to do it fully, very quickly, someone else might have to take little steps, but it's the same process for everyone to make that inroad into what we're talking about here. So one, identify your defences. And what I've done is I've gone through this journey as I've learned these things. I wrote down how I defend myself and I didn't like some of what I wrote down. I thought, oh, I can get quite angry and aggressive towards people if they hit that nerve, so to speak. So I had to. It forces you, I think, to one own it instead of blaming and it helps you to eat a bit of that humble pie instead of, as they say, humility helps for sure. SPEAKER A Yeah. SPEAKER B So we've got to own it versus dump it or stop looking to others, look back to ourself. What is it I need to change? If you change, they will change. We cannot change others, we can only change ourself. SPEAKER A Absolutely, yeah, yeah. No, that's very, very fascinating and very deep and challenging in many ways to think about that and to think about how much that is integrated in our lives. And it's quite a long term process or project really, to work through these different areas and bring better habits in. How we. SPEAKER B How long have we been doing these habits? How long have you been putting up these defences? Often from childhood through. But you can change anything. It doesn't take you as long to change it as it does to get the habit. SPEAKER A No, that's good to know. Sounds great. Well, I'm really looking forward to our next session with you as we unpack this a little bit more thank you so much for what you've shared today, Jenifer. In the last few programmes we've been talking with health psychologist Jenifer Skues all about how to have healthy, loving relationships. In the next programme we will have a look at how to have healthy communication and connection in relationships which contribute significantly towards feeling socially engaged and safe. This will be a very helpful discussion, so please join us again. If you have questions or comments about this programme then contact us on [email protected] dot au and remember to shape your lifestyle as medicine. SPEAKER A You've been listening to Your Lifestyle as Medicine, a production of 3ABN Australia television.