Communication & Connection in Relationships - YLAM240025

SPEAKER A This programme presents ways to optimise health. SPEAKER B And wellbeing when considering lifestyle changes. Please consult with your health care provider to ensure they are suitable for you. SPEAKER A Hello and welcome. I'm Kaysie Vokurka. Virginia Satur, a renowned 20th century clinical social worker and family therapist, commented that communication is to relationships what breath is to life. Communication is indeed a vital part of relationships, and today we'll talk more about how communication can help create healthy connection in our relationships. So stay tuned. This is your lifestyle as medicine, a production of 3ABN Australia television. It's great to have you on the programme where we explore ways that you can shape your lifestyle as medicine. Today we are discussing communication and connection in relationships with the help of health psychologist Jenifer Skues. Thank you for joining us once more. SPEAKER B Jenifer, it's a pleasure. I know we've got a lot to share today to learn some skills. SPEAKER A Yes, indeed. And we had a very interesting session on the last one where we were talking all about our defence mechanisms. Very fascinating. But I noticed that quite a lot of them were more negative, so they weren't very helpful, even though they were an attempt for us to make ourselves feel more safe and secure. Tell me about how we can work towards having more healthy defence mechanisms in our lives. SPEAKER B Okay. Well, it's something we've been doing for many years, you know, since we've been born and we've had models and we've built defences over a long period of time and we discuss that. So it's very possible to change, but we have to be patient and look at the change process, and you change it quicker than you put it in, because we've been repeating the process. So once you get a way of changing it, which is what we're looking at today, how can we do the repair work then? The sooner you do it, the quicker it will happen, because the brain is neuroplastic and it will actually rewire the way you do things. So it is that practising process, it's just knowing what to practise, what can I change and how can I change it? SPEAKER A And so, just to recap a little bit on what defence mechanisms are, they are those ways that we go about doing things that are often unproductive, but they are something that is trying to help us cope with the inner pain or hurt or guilt, those deeper things in the heart that we have. It's a way of trying to protect those sore spots, if you will. But it's not necessarily the most healthy ways. SPEAKER B No, because we want the healing process. So when you look at the defence mechanisms with the heart in the centre. And it's the pain, guilt, fear and shame that is the damaging factor. So we're nothing loving ourself in a healthy way or accepting ourself, and that's what we want to change. So instead of fear we can have confidence, instead of shame, we can have better messages. You know, we might feel guilt for the right reasons versus feel guilty for everything and the emotional pain starts to subside. But if we don't change personally, so we have to look at ourself as well. And what we're doing is the inroad into healing the heart is to do with the boundaries. It's setting healthy boundaries with yourself and with others. Because we can't just try and set boundaries with others and don't change anything, because we learn to bounce off of people's defence mechanisms and then we often have inappropriate responses to try and deal with the way people are treating us. So both of us have defences. So I have to look at myself and when I first saw this model quite a few years ago now it's like, wow, look at that. I do this and I do that. And, you know, I can see I'm not really a very nice person when I look at some of those things that times not all the time. And I started to look, well, why? And I realised then I started to observe myself and realise when I'm in fear, when I'm ashamed or guilty, that's when I respond inappropriately. So I thought, right, what am I going to do about this? And so this is where I learned that I need to, one, be honest with myself and honest with others. And that means I have to learn to communicate, to let people know what they're doing and how it affects me and own what I'm doing that affects other people. So that way. And this is where we did look at forgiveness. So this is where going in. And, you know, when we know we've used one of our defences and, you know, denial is a big defence, you know, defending yourself is a defence within itself. I did this because we justify or whatever. So this is where we learn to recognise first, then how can I talk to myself and own it for me, and how can I then go to the other person? And that is what we talk about, setting boundaries. And that's the inroad to healing the heart. That's one of the main inroads when it comes to relationships. I mean, you have a look at our relationship with God. He has boundaries and limits for us to keep us healthy. And when we infringe those, then we suffer. And we are the ones who have to then embrace that. And with God's help, change. We can ask for the help to change and ask the Holy Spirit to show us what we can change or what we need to change to be honest with ourself. And again, when we approach others, doing it prayerfully and doing it with that love that is true. So this is. This makes a huge difference because people aren't aware. Same as you weren't aware of your boundary system until you looked at that map, people aren't aware. And to go and accuse them only sets up more defences. So a boundary is like a gate and a fence. And what it's doing, how far away, like, about a physical boundary is, I don't know someone very well and I'm going to distance myself. I'm not going to go right up to them and touch them or do things. I've got to get to know them. So, you know, and people do socially, they might sit apart and if someone comes too close and I don't know them, it's uncomfortable and it's inappropriate. So this is where. How do we say, well, hang on, you're getting a bit close here. How do we do that in the right way instead of going back off or removing yourself? That's offensive. This is where we learn to express this relationship and what isn't working and what is working and affirming for things that do work, when people make changes are working at it. You affirm them for it. It reinforces it and affirm it with yourself. Ah. Before I would have reacted to that and justified it. Now I'm not. I've owned it. Isn't that positive? SPEAKER A Yes. SPEAKER B So. So it's. But the boundary has to be verbalised and we can actually start because there's a three step process to do this with that we can work with, and it's identifying the other person's boundary. Do they have a brick wall with no. No gate in it or it's locked? Do we lock the gate and keep people out? Or do we let people. People trample all over, come over the fence, into the garden? It's like the house people trespassing or. I feel like it and I'm not giving them the distance that I need. And some people don't have boundaries. They have no idea, they just come right up to you. I've had people, I don't know, they want to hug you or are too personal and it's like, well, hang on, I don't know you. How do I get to know them? So it's a way of getting to know people. It's a way of, particularly at the beginning of any friendship, if we've just starting to get to know someone, to keep it in perspective for yourself and the other person and even asking a question or whatever. But what we're going to go through is the three step process that we need to work with. Okay? So that. And this is how we make that inroad. So how do we set healthy boundaries? One, we need to identify the problem. What did they do? What did they actually do to be able to do that? Because we need to look at protecting ourself. I have actually got a list that we set boundaries to protect ourselves and others. You know, if we, before we come back to identifying that boundaries are about how we deal with other people's defence mechanisms, which we sort of have said. So how do you deal with them? Do you let them walk all over you? Do you react back? You know, that comes back to that power triangle. And we need to set boundaries with ourself as well as before we can set them with others. So I need to know what my limits are. Right. And that's when we. We're identifying our behaviours. But then we're also identifying the other person's behaviour. Yes. And that makes it more descriptive. So we're describing, we're not doing it emotionally. It's like being a reporter. Can you step back and observe what that person's doing that you're not comfortable with or you're reacting to and write it as an observation? Often writing things down helps because your brain is looking at it differently and it's able to then process it or think it through, or it might say, oh, yeah, and this has happened a few times now. It helps you to identify. It's not just a one off thing, for example. SPEAKER A So this is the first step, isn't it? SPEAKER B Is the first step, yeah. SPEAKER A Observing and objectively identifying what they have done. But it might be what we have done too. Is that right? SPEAKER B I think it's healthy to go, this is what that person's doing and they're angry with me, but what am I doing? Am I reacting back with anger or am I just shutting down and avoiding it? Yeah. How am I reacting? So I think we need. Well, I believe it's good to recognise both sides of that coin. What are they doing and what do I do about it? And I think if we're doing like, we're reacting back and I've known I've done that before. When someone approaches me with a lot of authority and is obviously angry, it mightn't be with me, but I then seem to, at times, if I'm not careful, mirror that tone and that's inappropriate. You know, I'm not praised, so I've got to own that as well. And this is where we talked about forgiveness. So I'm learning that if I did that, that might be someone I know quite well. I'll go to them and say, look, I'm sorry I reacted that way, because I do feel sorry. I don't go, well, look what you did. I own what I did, how I reacted. And that often opens up and I find then often people will say, oh, well, I know I was a bit of. I was having a bad day and I was angry and what you did, and so then it opens the conversation. So just. And I find just identifying the behaviour and pointing it out is often enough. What did they do? Or checking it out. SPEAKER A Yeah. And I guess that, I mean, you've got the step two there is asking, how does it make you feel? But that step one is important because it's helping us to separate a, the feelings from actually what's happening and that can help us clarify the whole situation. SPEAKER B Yes. We cannot do it from, as I said, emotional reasoning. SPEAKER A Yeah, yeah. Good. SPEAKER B So this is where we identify the problem. But how do you tell a person about that problem? So if you identify that someone is, I don't know, ignoring you, annoyed with you, how can you cheque it out with that person? Because we have to look at the strength we use and do we need to give a strong response or a strong pointing out, or do we need to be gentle? And there are ways we can be gentle. So it comes back to, how do you usually do it? And we know then we're not doing the right thing with boundaries. It just keeps it going. So one of the things I find is healthy is to cheque it out. And that to cheque it out, you can ask questions or do an observation, like things like, have you noticed. Have you noticed that when I ask you that, you seem to get annoyed with me? So instead of saying you're annoyed with me, we do it as an observation, like you seem to be, and it's what we call a face saving approach, because the person. Oh, no, I wasn't aware of it. But they could be. But it doesn't matter now. They're aware of it, even though they mightn't have admitted that they knew what they were doing. But it's like. And it's about what we call when you point out the behaviour, exposing the game they're playing. It's because these defence mechanisms are like the games people play and the power in the game is when the game is hidden and it's not being exposed, we expose it, but we can do it nicely. So have you noticed, or I've noticed or do you realise or I observed the other day when we were. You said you'd ring me, you know, but you didn't follow through. Are you okay? So you cheque it out instead of going, I'm annoyed because you didn't ring me. SPEAKER A Yes, yes. Bit more tactful. SPEAKER B Yeah. Instead of attacking, we cheque it out. And I find in doing that, people then open up because they don't feel they're being accused, they don't feel they're being punished in any way. Right. So this is what we want to do, is open communication and to do it by observation. And I find a. Quite often you only need to say what they did. Right. And then it opens communication if you do it the right way. The strongest way of doing it is a. When you. When you do this and when you do that and that, sometimes you need to do that with children, when you've told them they're not listening, when you do that, this is the consequence sort of thing. This is what happens. So this is where, first of all, cheque it out. Try not to be overbearing. But if they're not listening, you can then go the next step. But you might do it by questioning. They might not respond, say, well, did you hear what I just said? Are you listening to what I just said? Ask it as a question. Questions get people to think, whereas when you make an accusation, they're likely to respond negatively. SPEAKER A People will put up another defence mechanism. SPEAKER B Put it as an observation not set in concrete, you're not coming across as accusing them. All those things can help when you're exposing the game. Even if they deny it, they know you're onto it because you've described what's going on and you've done it in a way what we call a face saving way. And then if they don't listen, then you have to up the ante a little bit, as they say. SPEAKER A Yeah, but this is a very good approach because, I mean, I think many of us use some of these more negative defence mechanisms, maybe even without realising it. I know some people are aware of it and they play it intentionally, but many of us have these little things going on in our lives. And until someone might nicely point it out, we may not even realise what is happening or that we have it. Sorry. It's an opportunity for both parties to grow through it, then, isn't it? SPEAKER B Oh, absolutely. It certainly is. And this is where I know it's hard sometimes when people have pointed things out to me, but if they've done it the right way, I don't feel comfortable because I know they're right and then I feel honestly guilty because I did the wrong thing. But it gives me a chance to think about it and work through it and apologise if it's my fault. But if we do that, we want to do the same thing. We would like people to own it and if they don't, a stronger one would be that second step. We talked about the effect. So, you know, I get really frustrated when I try and tell you something and you get angry with me, for example. So we're expressing the effect first. Like I get frustrated. SPEAKER A Right. So expressing the feeling that we have in that situation would be a stronger thing to communicate when we're trying to resolve something like this. Yes. SPEAKER B Yeah. Because they kept doing it. They keep doing the behaviour that we don't like. The other problem with behaviours is defences. People have multiple defences. And the real game player, you know, there are people who just kids are good at learning this one very rapidly, where they go from one defence and you call them out on it and then they go to a second one, a different one, and they keep it. And it's like you've got to keep and say, no, I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about this. Like children go into defence mode if mum's telling them to do something. And I've heard kids, oh, but you do that mum, and mum then doesn't know where to go with it. And the answer is say, well, no, I'm not talking about what I did, I'm talking about what you did. So you put it back onto the person and this is where you then hopefully open communication, particularly with adults at this point, to discuss it further. So it's again calling out the game. And this is where I find people who come to me for help. They mightn't come as a couple, but it might be the man or the woman. And they keep getting all these defences from the person they're with. And what happens is we start to do the process and we find what is it they want to point out and how they want to do it with the guidelines. I've talked about and they do it and then the person brings in a second defence, so then they have to go, come and go, oh, what do I do now? So then we have to look at how do you use the same process for each defence and if they keep bringing them up, you then have to point out, well, whenever I've tried to discuss this with you, you seem to just want to take it to another level and then you might have done it this way and now you're doing it that way. Or you change the topic as a good defence, for example, change the topic. So then you point out the next defence and work with that one. Because people are good game players, they've learned from a very young age and not everyone is willing to give up their defences. This is part of the problem because. SPEAKER A We all want that safe and secure thing placed inside, don't we? SPEAKER B And this is where we're stating what we prefer by saying, I'd really like you to talk to me nicely instead of being angry with me is a preference. And if it hasn't worked by pointing out the behaviour, then we sort of look at might use our effect, but not where we're overpowering them with it and we're being honest about it, it's not a made up one. And then we're looking at what we prefer. But if all else fails, there is a. We have to set a consequence, right? So there you can see the three steps. But here, if all of those steps fail, what if all else fails? What if the three steps don't work and there's no behaviour change? But then we have to look at consequences, right? And if we. We've got to look at a fair consequence, we can't do something that's extreme and never set a consequence. You won't carry out or follow through, okay? Because then you're the loser in a way because you can't do it and that just means they've got the upper hand again now. Well, she didn't follow it through. She didn't do it. Set healthy boundaries with love and respect and that means we've got to love and respect ourselves. And if it was so, how would you like to be spoken to? And that's one of the things I do where I go. Well, how would you like to be spoken to? I asked myself and I say, well, I think I was a bit harsh or I could have said it in a better way. Right. So I'm learning as I go and sometimes I get people who say, well, I don't just do it. And I say, well, how would you like me to tell you? And then you get them to give me the wording, you know, so if you do it again, what would you like me to say to you? So we. You negotiate the boundary. SPEAKER A So this is where you're asking, that third step. What do you prefer? You're wanting to gain mutual understanding between each other as to if we cross, if we come into this encounter again, what is the navigational pathway that we're going to agree on? SPEAKER B Yes, agreed. Boundaries are we verbalise because some people find a particular word as a trigger for them. So if you express it a different way and they say no, when you say that to me, I just react. But if you say it like this, I'll be fine. SPEAKER A Yeah. SPEAKER B Another thing I had with a couple, when we were doing this as a couple, that they decided when things got too heated and started to get out of hand, that they would have a word and they used the word geronimo. So if one of them said geronimo, it was like, no, back off, you know, go and cool down. It's getting too heated. Come back and start again. And that worked for them. They both used that. Yeah. So they. They did their own boundary setting in a different way when it was getting a bit out of control and they found that diffuse the bomb, basically, and then they could go and think about it, work out what it is and come back again. SPEAKER A Right. So this boundary, the actual boundary that is made would be very individualised, is that correct? Like, it depends on certain settings, personalities, the problems we're dealing with. It's going to be tailored to each? SPEAKER B Yes, that's exactly how it works. So that means they're negotiable boundaries and we can even do things at once. We start setting boundaries, say, look, there's a number of things sometimes I react to. Is it okay if I point it out nicely and that means it gives you scope then to do more of these boundaries, you know, and consequences are hard. One, if they won't follow it through. In other words, they're rebellious, they're defiant, they don't care, maybe, who knows? But then you have to find out why they weren't following it through. That's communication. Why is it so hard for you to do that and get them to tell you? SPEAKER A Mm hmm. Yeah. No, that's very interesting. And I like how with using this approach of boundaries, we are able to establish a pathway that is going to help protect both sides in a very healthy way, as well as navigate the unhealthy defence mechanisms that keep cropping up and hurting each other. It's kind of like putting a line in between them and saying, hang on, we can deal with it this way and it'll be much better. SPEAKER B It'll be much better. Yeah. And we can do that in work environments, home environments, friendships, all environments. We can respect boundaries. SPEAKER A Yeah. SPEAKER B And give people feedback if we don't know them. And, you know, I find people can be very angry and I've learned to say instead of reacting to them when they're fronting me with something they're angry about, I go, you seem really angry, like, oh, yes, I am. And no one listens to me. And you go into a dialogue and will tell me about it. So then, you know, because they're not angry with me, but they're presenting angrily. Then you hear about all that happened and it diffuses that bomb. But the ultimate no setting of boundaries. If someone is physically threatening, you do not go there, you know, so. And that's unusual. But if you're in a relationship that is violent, then you to do this, I don't think's realistic. It's a hybrid. SPEAKER A It's hard to have that on your own physical state. SPEAKER B Have a mediator. Yeah. Do something else with it. But we're talking about general, our relationships overall. Now the power of communication is so important. Learn to be a good listener. We have empathy with others, know how it feels to be in those shoes. Equality, we're not putting them down. We're equal in that relationship. Communicate openly, help them, you know, do instead of behind closed doors. And they have to be loving and supportive relationships. Okay, so this is, and we have to do that being honest with ourselves and others. So this is important. SPEAKER A Yeah. So having really a sense of freedom to speak about those things that are popping up is quite important. And just, I guess when we're going in a relationship and there's these things that crop up to just give each other the space to say, you know what, if these things happen, it's okay, let's just talk it through and then gain mutual understanding. I think from those three steps of boundaries, that was a big thing that you're achieving there. Mutual understanding of where each party is coming from. Yeah. And then working it through. SPEAKER B Yeah. Well, as we're winding this down now, we started with God's love and how God loves us and the proportion of loving God, loving ourself, loving others. I've got one verse there I'd like to finish with. And that is one john four. And there's three verses seven. Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God and everyone who loves is born of God and knows goddess ten in this is love. Not that we love God, but he loved us and sent his son to be the propitiation for our sins. Well, that's great. Love. And eleven, beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. It's a command. So we need to do this to love others. Let our self love others. SPEAKER A Yeah, and that's a great verse because it's giving us an example of someone who did show incredible love and understanding in the face of some very serious defences coming his way, if we can call it that. SPEAKER B Some hurtful ones. SPEAKER A Hurtful ones, absolutely. SPEAKER B The healing process. SPEAKER A And he was able to show, using those effective strategies, things like forgiveness and what have you, ways to treat others who are not treating you so well in a way that's very positive and helpful. So thank you for sharing that text as well. And thank you for sharing from all your experience working with people to help solve some of these challenging things in relationships. I've got some very useful principles there. We've been discussing how to have healthy, loving relationships with health psychologist Jenifer Skues. I've enjoyed considering ways to improve my own relationships and I trust that these programmes have provided understanding and insight that is helpful for you too. If you have questions or comments about this programme, or if there's a topic you'd like us to discuss, contact us on [email protected] dot au and remember to shape your lifestyle as medicine. SPEAKER A You've been listening to Your Lifestyle as Medicine, a production of 3ABN Australia television.