Forgiveness & Living in the Present - YLAM240019

SPEAKER A This programme presents ways to optimise health and wellbeing when considering lifestyle changes. Please consult with your health care provider to ensure they are suitable for you. SPEAKER B Hello and welcome. I'm Kaysie Vokurka. Doctor Fred Luskin, director of the Stanford University Forgiveness Projects, noted that forgiveness is the experience of peacefulness in the present moment. Forgiveness does not change the past, but it changes the present. Today we will talk more about how and why forgiveness changes us in the present. So stay with us. SPEAKER A This is your lifestyle as medicine, a production of 3ABN Australia television. SPEAKER B On this programme we explore ways that you can shape your lifestyle as medicine. It's great you've joined. Join us as we continue talking about the subject of forgiveness. In this programme, we'll look at how forgiveness helps us to live in the present moment. We're very happy to have health psychologist Jenifer Skues with us once more to take us through this topic. Welcome, Jenifer. SPEAKER C Thank you. It's a good place to be today indeed, talking about forgiveness. SPEAKER B Yeah, absolutely. That's so true. And so last time we talked a little bit about generally understanding forgiveness and what that's about. And so we're talking today about forgiveness in the present moment. And so how does that work? Like, how does forgiveness affect us in the here and now? SPEAKER C Okay. We do have a model. This is a model I've developed and I use with a lot of disorders and problems that we have. So we're going to look at it in two different contexts. The first one, which is now up on the screen, is looking more at the way we function, how the brain functions, emotions and those sorts of things. And then we're going to look at it from a more spiritual perspective. But when you have a look at this model, we can only be in the present moment. We cannot go back and live in the past, we cannot project and live in the future. And when you have a look at it, how we are in the present will determine our quality of life, whether at peace, whether we're at war with ourselves and others. So this is important. And I find models are very good because what it does, it helps the person looking at the model to be able to get an orientation. Okay? And I mean, this is where it's about to forgive or not to forgive. And this is the impact on past, present and future. We want to be in the present, we want quality of life. Yet I'd say very few people seem to have that. I have met them, but the majority suffer in the present. And when you're in the present, if you start, if you haven't resolved the past, and we talked a little bit about that with forgiveness before that. We need to be able to forgive, to be free. Now, the past is a thing that is going to haunt us and keep us stuck if we can't forgive whatever happened. We have emotional wounds that are ongoing when we've backlogged the past. And again, in some of the programmes we've done, we've looked at how that happens. We have memory banks in the brain, we factor it in. And usually when we're focused on the past, the left brain is ruminating. So if it's what someone did to you, you're spending a lot of time in the present. Oh, what they did was terrible. Some people say, I'll never forgive them. And you've got all these things happening in the past and what it does, we're dragging up the emotional baggage in the present and the left brain is working. Then when we're in the present, what we do, we take that baggage and we project into the future. So we've got fear thinking, the what if. And that means if we're someone hurt us like that in the present, what are we doing? We're projecting and going, what if it happens again? And, you know, all these people have done these things to me and that means my life's going to be miserable. And, you know, and then we action it, and that makes the future worse. It means I can't have good relationships, for example. So that means I'm going to project into the future and look at the unknown fears, fear projection. So we're never truly in the present moment. Now, when we do that fear projection into the future, we're projecting the fear, or what we're worrying about. We worry the person's going to do it again, for example. Then the right brain becomes highly active and it accesses the emotional baggage from the past and projects it, sits with it. So that means then we can feel really anxious, because we're now ruminating and worrying on what's going to happen. So the key to the door is to come back to the present. Now, where is God? Where will we find God in that model, do you think? Good question. Past, present or future? SPEAKER B Well, God is a living God, isn't he? He's alive. So that sort of indicates that he's present, doesn't it? SPEAKER C Absolutely. He knows the past, he knows everything that's happened to us. He knows our future and our future projection, which is based on what we're doing in the past. If we can't forgive, then he knows our future is going to go a certain way. If we forgive, it will change. Right? So, but we have all these future projections that God is aware of, I believe, but it's in the present. We have choices. And this is where we're going to have a look at this model again in relationship to our relationship with God. So, and that means what we're doing now, we're looking at being God centred or Christ centred in the present. And that means the Holy Spirit can work with us. You can see it up there. Now, we might focus on the past. We're not doing the gloom and doom thinking because we're focus with Christ. If we go to God and seek forgiveness and we're learning to forgive others in the present, and that is certainly the solution. So that means the Holy Spirit can work with us and that means it opens the heart to what happened in the past and then we can renew ourselves because that means our mind is renewing, because we're now changing those old thoughts and beliefs. And that's where that thing of maybe rethinking how you can see what the person did to you, you know, how bad was it? Did they really mean it? Ask yourself some questions in the present and what do I want to do about it? And that means we can make decisions and take action. And I know sometimes I've had to say, well, I really need to maybe ask some questions of that person because I never talk to them about it. I just. I did, actually. I personalised it, took it on board personally, but never checked out. Is that what they really meant? So sometimes we might. If it's a friend, family we go back to, the person might be my sister. And I say, the other day in discussion we had, and this is what you said, oh, this is what I meant. Or I didn't mean it that way, or if she did, we talk about it and resolve it and then I can forgive and go, or she can forgive me if I've wronged her. But I find going to God first in the present seeking his help. And even really, even if the person didn't deliberately hurt us, but we've taken it that way, we then have to look at, how can we actually deal with that? Because we've taken it that way. And if I've taken it that way and I'm angry with them, I need to go to God and say, look, lord, I'm so sorry I reacted that way. That's where God forgives. I'm angry. Please help me to let it go. I've spoken to the person and they really didn't mean it or, you know, that. I realise now I've overreacted. So we talk to God, we talk to the person. And I find when you do that, you're back in the present. It's a relief. That's where you have peace. We only have peace in the present. I mean, I can look back at what happened and if I'm not careful, I get caught up in it again. And one of your questions before, how do you know is, well, when you're going over and over the problem and it's like you're vilifying the person and you keep doing all these things, then you haven't truly forgiven. How do I know I've truly forgiven? I'm at peace. Oh, I've forgiven, but I never forget. Well, it's not that we forget the event, but we forget the emotional sting of the event. It's no longer active. That's the healing from the spirit and the emotions. Therefore the soul can be at peace. SPEAKER B And obviously, even though we have the healing in the emotions like that, they're not welling up every time with triggers or whatever. I guess at the heart of that is really the thought processes, isn't it? Because looking at that model with the past reflection versus the future fear projection, that really is what we are choosing to think about and focus on, isn't it? SPEAKER C It's all in the mind, it's what we're doing with our thinking and how we're actioning what we think. And before, we did look at a model earlier on in the series where we looked at thoughts and our beliefs feed our thinking, our thinking feeds our feelings, and our feelings then translate to action and the physiology, the body's reaction to that. So if we're feeling angry and hurt, then we're thinking that way and we're actioning that way. And that's where I find once you go and in the mind and you have to change your belief about the event or the person, and some of it is acceptance, maybe they did deliberately do it, whatever hurt you, and we might have to accept, well, that's what that person is. And if they keep doing it, do I really want to be a friend of theirs? Or there's different ways of solving the problem and we can only solve the problem in the present. So what I do is help people to look at a solution focused present moment. If that happened again, what would you do? Or because that happened, what would you like to do about it? Now let's look at solving the problem. And because once our mind is really confused and dragging up the past and projecting into the future, we cannot think rationally in the present. Yes, and that's partly what I do, is help people to reframe and think more rationally in the present, to step back. Writing it down helps, I find, if you don't talking to anyone, writing it down and being able to look at it, because the brain works differently when we write it down, other than just thinking it, when the brain reads it back or says it out loud, there are different parts of the brain that help to integrate that information. So it's a great way. And of course pray about it, talk to God. And there are people who aren't prayerful or aren't christians, but they can still forgive, they can do it. If they've got a good heart, they can still forgive. But I believe we still need God's forgiveness in the way we've been and how others have been. SPEAKER B Yeah. And it's really about awareness, isn't it? This whole process of being aware of what is going on inside, what is purely emotion, what thought is connected to the emotion and just analysing that thought for what it is, recognise that it's a past one or that it's a future fear one, and then say, okay, how can I think about this different problem? SPEAKER C It solves the problem. SPEAKER B Yeah. SPEAKER C And this is where by adding God into the equation and we're allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us and lead us, will give us the answers, because that's the Holy Spirit transforms, he's a transformer. And I mean, I don't know how you go, but I find I, I have a problem, I'm bogged down, it's troubling me and it might be because of what someone did, in fact, it usually is. And I pray about it and the next thing, an idea or a thought comes to me, a way of seeing it or what I need to do about it, and I know it's not mine. SPEAKER B Yeah. SPEAKER C And that I see how this holy spirit works, it takes, makes it a lot easier and it's easier to solve that problem when we work spiritually in the present. SPEAKER B And that's very interesting because I was wondering what you thought about that, because obviously if people aren't used to or not even have a worldview that includes God, I wondered how much different is it for them if they're trying to work through forgiveness without that factor, versus someone who is embracing an awareness and a belief in God into this process. SPEAKER C Yes. Now there's people might say like they don't know God, they forgive, they don't work spiritually, say, they might say they've forgiveness. Unless it heals the pain, they're going to keep bringing it up or reacting to the person or misinterpreting what people are doing or saying because they still haven't been able to fully let it go. But there are some people who can. It's not impossible. SPEAKER B But what you sort of suggested before was that bringing God into it actually helps enhance getting to the heart of the problems in this process. Because God as we know it from a biblical perspective is all knowing. He knows everything. He's made us. He knows the thought processes. He knows exactly what to bring to our mind that needs dealing with in order to move forward to a path of healing. SPEAKER C Absolutely. But this is where if we've got people watching this or listening to be able, even if you aren't actively christian or doing something on that level, you can still give it a go, say, right, well, why not try talking to God and see what happens? Put it to the test. Because people have done that and they've been amazed at the response. So it's not about going to church or doing any of that. It's about connecting your life and your heart with God. And ask for that. We can ask for anything. SPEAKER B And of course, that's on the premise that God is someone who is loving and interested in our wellbeing and so he would want to help us to get our best possible life experience. SPEAKER C Yes. And that works really well. There are some very good quotes I've looked at here that I'll read them out. And there's a couple by, several of them are by a christian man, Louis Smeeds, who's written very insightful things. And one, there's a few I'll read, but this one is about forgiving does not erase the bitter past. SPEAKER B Okay. SPEAKER C Because we still have a bitter past. A healed memory is not a deleted memory. Instead, forgiving what we cannot forget creates a new way to remember. Now, this is what I was saying. We don't then remember the emotional charge. We might remember the event, but you can think of it and it doesn't mow you down. You don't go into anger and pain anymore. We change the memory of our past into a hope for our future. So this is the healing in the present of the past and the future. You look at it, there's another one, he said, for giving heals the memory as you change your memory's vision, which is saying the same sort of thing. So if I change my vision of that person, and even if we couldn't find out why they did what they did, to actually even assume or accept, well, maybe they didn't mean it. Right. So this is where we have to start to look at things a bit differently, is what we believe. And, you know, I don't know if they were deliberately doing that. Therefore, I need to forgive and let it go. SPEAKER B Yeah. And do you have a story or example of life experience where that. Where someone has done that? SPEAKER C Yeah, I do, actually. I had a look at a couple of examples, and this is one. And it was a young woman, her name was Rachel, and she had a lot of zest for life. She was. I think that was in 2008 this actually happened. And it was a month before she was going to be married. And she had friends and that around. They had a pool and they had, like, I guess a pool party, you could say, to celebrate this. And a freak accident left her paralysed from the chest down for the rest of her life, which is very sad, before she's getting married. Yeah. Apparently they were what they used to. They call their a bachelorette party. So, I mean, I don't know whether she accepted God or whatever she did, but she was obviously good woman. And while they were hanging out by the pool, a friend of hers playfully pushed into the pool. Right. But unfortunately, even though it was a harmless prank, she plunged headfirst into the pool and the shallow end. So she fractured two of her vertebrae, which probably stopped the connection to the brain. So that's where she was paralysed. Now, if that happened, most people would have gone into despair, depression, but she chose to remain positive. So this is the choice. In the present moment, she decided to see it positively. Apparently her fiance stood by her and they actually got married a year after the accident because she needed time for rehab and healing and work with a wheelchair. And as I said, she could have sunk into despair, but she didn't have. And she actually, at the moment it happened, she didn't blame her friend. She'd already forgiven her, basically. It's like how many people do that when something. Someone does something to you that you've actually forgiven at that moment. And I have had moments like that where forgiveness is not an issue because, you know, I'm not angry, I'm not hurt. I've accepted what happened the way they did it or whatever. So this is where we can actually be in that space. And it might be hard to believe, but we can. Because when we don't blame. Forgiveness is not an issue yet. It's an event where normally you would want to look at, can I forgive that person for what they did? But she lived in the present, she worked in the present moment and she kept a positive frame of mind. Her beliefs were positive. She didn't go, this person, she's terrible. She's not my friend anymore. So the way we think about it has a huge effect on whether we need to forgive or whether we've accepted what happened. What an amazing lady she is. SPEAKER B Absolutely. I mean there's so many directions your head could go if that happened to you, like very negative places. You could just think, life isn't worth living and many people have experienced that. So that's quite an incredible thing. I could imagine it would be harder if there was a situation where someone had actually done something with evil intent. Yes, because then it's not like, oh, it was a freak accident, it's like, well, this person meant to do this or this person, you know, they had that wrong and so then you have to process all of that as well, which is quite a big challenge. SPEAKER C It is. And then you've got to make a decision, am I going to blame the person or am I going to accept what they did? That's important. So if we can do that, I've got another good comment here. I can forgive, but I cannot forget is. And really that's another way of saying I won't forgive. Yeah, we say that and that again is the present moment and the other one is you will know that forgiveness has begun when you recall those who hurt you and feel the power to wish them well. So can we. Like this is the example I gave. SPEAKER B Yeah, that's very interesting because that's an example of how when you have refined your thought processes to be aligned with a forgiving attitude so much that your feelings reflect that. That is when it really has the power. Like the forgiveness power is truly active in your life at that point, which is amazing. SPEAKER C Absolutely. It's a very big, positive. Scientific research has a lot to say about forgiveness now, even though there is still not a lot of good research done, there are people who've studied it and actually have a lot to say about it and some of the things, they found an area of the brain associated with forgiveness. So we've got a part of the brain that relates, that is active when we forgive and I believe that's to do with the conscience. We know right and wrong is often in the emotional centre in the region known as the limbic system. So it's actually within the emotional brain itself. But I'd say it connects to the conscience, you know, because we make that decision. But that's interesting. And they found that letting go of grudges or bitterness can make a way for improved health and peace of mind. So don't we want. You know, and I believe a lot of people's health suffer because they don't even know they need to forgive, that they're holding grudges or whatever. You can have healthier relationships, they found, and this is all well researched. You improve mental health, you have less anxiety, for example, and stress and hostility. You let go of it, you don't have that anymore. So that means you get fewer symptoms of depression. A lot of depression is I won't forgive or what the person did to me. It's ruined my life. I hear all sorts of things and I say, well, how can we do something so it's not ruining your life? I use those negatives and help them to, as we say, reframe. Also, there's a positive impact physically on lowering blood pressure, strengthening the immune system, improving heart health. Because people can have a broken heart, they can actually have what's called the broken heart syndrome. And that's because they've been so grieved and so hurt and they haven't known how to deal with it or forgive that the heart goes into pumpkin overload and it seems like a heart attack, but it's not. SPEAKER B Wow. SPEAKER C It impacts. So we can have heart health by forgiving. SPEAKER B Amazing. SPEAKER C Which is a good thing. Yeah. It lowers blood pressure as well. Improves self esteem. In other words, how we value ourself and others. It doesn't mean we're perfect. Yeah. And I believe because God values us, we can value ourself. Even though we've done things that are wrong, we have a way of dealing with it, with forgiveness, if that makes sense. SPEAKER B That's really incredible, all of those things, because that's quite an array of different health benefits. And I was remembering what you've shared with us before about how the emotions, I guess, can be represented in chemicals that just flood our whole being to every cell of the body. Right. And if forgiveness is linked in with that limbic system or the emotional centre and trigger that, then it makes sense that that will influence all these other health conditions. Because if it's giving you more positive emotions, it's gonna be affecting your body with those. SPEAKER C Absolutely. Chemicals cause every thought you have goes to every cell of the body, whether it's positive or negative. It's positive. It uplifts all the cells and helps them. If it's negative, it brings them down and brings disease and ill health, which. But again, it's interesting because when it comes to research, it's not just religious ideas on forgiveness. And our psychology is using it as a tool to help people and depending on the person's faith as to what they see that as. But again, they've shown if people forgive, it reduces anger, anxiety and depression. So there's a lot to be done. There's a lot more research that needs to be done. They've looked at relationships and again, they found that forgiveness is scarce in looking at all these variables, but a lot more research would be beneficial for people. But they support the indirect forgiveness, effective forgiveness on psychological help. His health is powerful. So, yeah, so even if we do the action of forgiveness and remember we're in the present moment doing this, it will impact how we view the past and how we project into the future. I think that's definitely a powerful tool. SPEAKER B Yeah, that's really amazing. And I find it really encouraging, actually, that there is a lot of research going on in this area and people are finding that it's something that's very, very helpful for obviously not only mending relationships, but mending health problems too, that are stemming from that emotional trauma at the heart of it. SPEAKER C Absolutely. SPEAKER B Yeah. That's really a powerful thing. SPEAKER C Oh, it is. As you said, it's a healing process and it's what people can do to help themselves. And this is where I'm pleased to see psychology is embracing it. And certainly it's something we know biblically is a very powerful tool. So it's something that we need to keep doing and we need to explore and remember that we can change anything when we change the brain and our beliefs and our values changes everything. SPEAKER B That's the neuroplasticity principle, isn't it? SPEAKER C We can change anything we want to. SPEAKER B Yeah. Which is such a powerful thing to understand that. And that's what I love about having these conversations, because we are helping people to become more aware of how we're made and how we work as human beings and what can be done to optimise the healing that help in our bodies. Yeah. And our minds and emotions and relationships. SPEAKER C Every aspect of our being and spiritual health. SPEAKER B Spiritual, absolutely. Yeah. So that's very, very good. Thank you so much for sharing about that and the insights about the present moment. And I know we're going to dive into a bit more in the next couple of sessions, so really looking forward to that. And thank you for sharing. Today, we've been talking with health psychologist Jenifer Skues about forgiveness and how it helps us to live in the present moment. This is powerful because it frees us from being stuck in the past and from anxieties that stem from past experiences. In the next programme, we'll look at the struggles people have with practising forgiveness and how to deal with them. You won't want to miss this, so please join us again. If you have questions or comments about this programme, or if there's a topic you'd like us to discuss, contact us on [email protected] dot au dot. We are so glad that you've joined us. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us on this programme. And remember to shape your lifestyle as medicine. SPEAKER A You've been listening to Your Lifestyle as Medicine, a production of 3ABN Australia television.