Understanding Forgiveness - YLAM240018

SPEAKER A This programme presents ways to optimise health and wellbeing when considering lifestyle changes. Please consult with your health care provider to ensure they are suitable for you. SPEAKER B Hello and welcome. I'm Kaysie Vokurka. What does salt, honey and forgiveness have in common? They're all used to heal wounds. Salt in the form of saline cleanses, while honey promotes healing through its antibacterial and anti inflammatory properties. Forgiveness, however, heals wounds of the heart. It is like a balm that can heal, hurts that otherwise would never heal. We're going to talk more about this next. SPEAKER A This is your lifestyle as medicine, a production of 3ABN Australia television. SPEAKER B It's so good to have you with us as we learn more about how you can shape your lifestyle as medicine. Today we are starting a set of sessions on forgiveness. This is a very significant and deep topic that can impact our health in all dimensions of our lives, mental, emotional, social, spiritual and physical. To cover this important topic, we have Jenifer Skues back with us again. Jenifer, thank you for being so willing to share with us. SPEAKER C Oh, a pleasure. It's a good topic. It's a topic I think we need to explore. SPEAKER B Absolutely. And I'm so glad that we can do this together because forgiveness is truly powerful and yet I think there are so many people who really don't understand it. They have misconceptions and barriers in their minds towards practising it. And I think to bring clarity on this topic will be a real blessing. So can you start us off with telling us what actually is forgiveness? SPEAKER C Okay. Forgiveness, it obviously means different things to different people, but it involves an intentional decision to let go of your resentment and anger from someone that's hurt you or something that has gone wrong. And it is, regardless of what happened. And it's the hardest thing people struggle with. I find that clients I have or people I talk to really struggle with this topic and don't even realise how much it's affecting them. But it is a conscious and deliberate decision. We have to be aware of it to be able to forgive. Because if we don't forgive, we've got a lot of resentment and anger towards a person or what happened. A group, sometimes it might be work, it could be anything who've harmed you and even if they don't deserve to forgive. And this is where the Bible is very good at instructing us in that we need to do forgiveness. It's very important. The Bible has a lot to say about forgiveness, of course, and it talks about God's gracious forgiveness of our sin and the sin is actually when we go against God, when we disobey, it's like disobeying a parent. There's a consequence, and he is gracious to forgive us. Therefore we are to forgive others. It's a very important thing we need to learn to do. I don't believe it's something we just innately do. If anything, we're unforgiving. It's rare to find someone who's a naturally forgiving person. SPEAKER B Yeah, absolutely. And I'm just thinking about something we've talked about in previous sessions, about how when we understand how the mind works, it can work better. And I think this might apply with forgiveness as well. You know, if we understand forgiveness and how that works in our minds and in our lives, it's going to make such a big difference to us. Now I'm interested because a common misconception probably comes from a saying that's usually thrown around in relation to forgiveness. Is this idea of forgive and forget that forgiveness is somehow just a complete wipeout and you're forgetting what's happened before. Is that true or is that something that's not quite the right idea? SPEAKER C Okay. When we forgive someone, we don't usually forget what happened or what they did, but what we do is we, when we've truly forgiven, it's something that doesn't keep coming up again. We can actually let it go. And we have to have unselfish love to truly forgive. And that's. People have to learn to love unselfishly. But when we truly forgive, we can remember the event, but it doesn't come back to emotionally bring us down anymore. We've released the emotion, the power of that negative emotion that has kept us stuck in it. SPEAKER B Interesting. Okay, so you're saying that we don't literally forget it, as in it's totally blanked out, but because we've let it go, it's not reoccurring so much in our minds and our lives. SPEAKER C Absolutely. And we will explore that more in our next session. We're going to look at time orientation and that's part of that. But when we truly forgive, we've let go of the resentment and we don't need compensation. Often with, when we even in forgiving, we want them to do something more. It's an act of. It doesn't matter. I've just got to forgive that person regardless of how they respond. SPEAKER B Yeah. So can you tell me a little bit more about why is forgiveness important? Do we actually need to forgive? Why do we need to forgive if that's the case. Can you unpack that a little bit more? SPEAKER C Okay. Well, when we forgive, there's a number of benefits. One, it lessens the grip of what happened, because if not, we carry it with us and we go over it and over it. It frees us from the control that person had over us, because while we're unforgiving, they're still controlling us emotionally. It can also lead to feelings of understanding, empathy, or even compassion for the person that hurt you. And we're going to look at some good examples of that. Doesn't mean you make up with the person. Some people don't want to do that, but I think it's something that has to come from us initially, regardless of how the other person responds. But when we truly forgive, I find you get a real peace and even a joy. It's a relief. And that's been my experience. When I've been able to forgive someone, I find I don't keep going over it anymore. It doesn't have that power over me anymore. And I'm actually free to give something more positive to that person. SPEAKER B Hmm. Rather than reacting out of the negative emotions that inevitably well up when we have a hurt that comes to us. SPEAKER C I'm living there, I'm back in the present, and I'm in control of what's going on, and I'm not living on that emotional edge, and that's not good. You know, I know what that's like. And this is where a lot of mental, emotional illness comes from, where we get anxiety, depression, we go social isolation. You know, we shut people out. So there's a lot riding on if we forgive or don't forgive. SPEAKER B And forgiveness, I guess the whole concept of it, it's almost like a contractual thing, because the fact that we are needing to forgive means that someone has done something against us that's wrong. So there's a relationship rule that's broken here that we need to address, and hence why there's a need to forgive. So, yeah, it's interesting how that that works, really, isn't it? SPEAKER C Well, it is, because what happens is people sometimes don't realise they've upset you, hurt you, or offended you. They don't intend to do that. And we can carry that bitterness and resentment, and that affects our relationship with that person to the point where they feel hurt and they don't know why. Why is this happening? Why are they treating me this way? And that's been my experience, particularly when I was married, I used to misinterpret what my husband was saying. To me, and I'd react and then we'd talk about it, and in the end he'd say, no, I didn't mean it like that. So this is where clarifying, you know, but if you don't go and do the forgiveness thing or cheque out, why am I reacting? And that's where communication and relationships comes into it. SPEAKER B Yeah. It seems like it's something that requires quite a deep understanding of. Of ourselves and also what is right and wrong between people, you know? Because if you don't have some sort of guide with that, it's kind of like a sea of uncertainty in terms of, I feel this way, but I don't know why. And this person did this, but that should be okay. But maybe it wasn't okay, but I didn't know that. And, like, it's just so. It can be so overwhelming for people trying to wade through this. Yeah. SPEAKER C And a lot of relationships break down because of it. Because really, forgiveness is a two way relationship, regardless of how the other person responds. And this is where we come back to see God forgives us. And I know people listening are Christians, maybe don't understand it. It's a great Bible study. And he, when we give a heartfelt apology and we go to God, it can't be lip service. And it's the same with people. It has to be heartfelt. It can do a lot of, as you said, healing. It's a healing. It's a balm, it's a healing process. There's a very good verse in Ephesians 432, if people would, you know, they can do it themselves. And I've picked the amplified version. It says, be kind and helpful to one another. And I think that's a good way to put it. Tender hearted, compassionate, understanding, forgiving one another readily and freely. Just as God in Christ also forgave you, so we must remember, God forgives, Jesus forgives. And that was one of his roles here. And he says, just come to me, you know, give us, if we do the Lord's prayer, forgive us our debts in the older version or our sins or our wrongdoing, and forgive those who hurt us or sinned against us. So there's lots of. That's why I'm saying it's a great study. If anyone wants to do that. It's very helpful in understanding what true forgiveness is. We can't leave God out of the equation. SPEAKER B Yeah. And that was very interesting, that verse, because it literally did have the two dimensions of relationships. There was the relationships between people, and then the relationship between God and humanity. And if we have both of those relationship dimensions healed through forgiveness, then there's harmony, isn't there? There's peace on all fronts. SPEAKER C But this is where if we've done the wrong thing with God and we don't go to him for forgiveness, we sever that relationship. It's a two way relationship. Sometimes we have to look, and if we're feeling distant from God to have a look, if I've done something, have I offended him? Just like if I've offended my friend? Yes. And that way we can go. And God, as it says, is all forgiving. He loves us, he wants us to come to him. And obviously God gets hurt, too, or Jesus gets hurt when you look at the reality. So I find when I've done the wrong thing with someone, I go to God first and I talk to him and ask him to help me, to forgive me for. Because when you offend someone, you offend Jesus as well. So going and sorting that relationship out, I find then I have that unselfish love and that compassion to be able to go to the person. I can't go to them in anger. I've tried doing that and it's like, oh, well, I'm so sorry, but in your heart you're not sorry. It's giving lip service, so we have to be careful not to do that. SPEAKER B Yeah. And I guess you mentioned about that's how you get the unselfish love. And Jesus demonstrated that, didn't he, in terms of forgiveness, you know, on the cross when he was crucified in terrible pain. He's forgiving his enemies. And that's a powerful example for us to consider, isn't it? SPEAKER C Yes. We're meant to love our enemies, and if we love anyone, we are forgiving. So it goes hand in hand. SPEAKER B Yeah. So tell us a little bit more. I think you mentioned you have some examples of, like, real life scenarios where people have, you know, this relationship barrier has been broken, if you will, and forgiveness is needed. So. Yeah. Can you take us through those? SPEAKER C Yeah. Well, one of them I think most people would be familiar with is David. I mean, he was a man of God's heart and he talked a lot about his feelings, his emotions. When you read the psalms yet you have a look. He broke all of God's commandments, all the law. And I think the most prominent one is when, with Bathsheba, when he was meant to be at war. Instead, he was on the balcony and he saw Bathsheba taking a bathe. And we don't know what that entailed, but he desired her. In other words, he had a lustful process, as they would have said back then, where he wanted her. So he sent his servants and she came and then, as they put it, they lay together or they slept together or they had that sexual relationship which was very, very wrong. I mean, he was tempted. It's a temptation, isn't the problem. If he realised he was tempted and said, look, you know that it's wrong to do that, but he didn't, he went with it. And we do that even if we think it's a bit wrong sometimes we just. Oh, well, I'll do it anyway. You know, we just go ahead. We override that conscience fact. Well, he must have done that. And then, to top it off, because he desired her and wanted her, he wanted to marry her. He then organised for her wife, her husband, Uriah, who was on the battlefield for David, organised to put him in the front line to have him killed. And that's what happened. Well, that's murder when you look at it. Adultery, murder. And he wasn't remorseful at that time. And this went on for a while. She was going to have his baby and in the end, obviously, he married her. But in the end, one of the prophets, Nathan, came to him and told him a story that if people want to go and read it, told him a story about this man who did the wrong thing. And David said, who is this man? It's like, I want to kill him or punish him. And Nathan said, this man is you. And that was when remorse kicked in. So at what point are we remorseful? And, you know, this is where he then repented. Incredibly, there was a. There's always a consequence when we do the wrong thing, whether it be we lose a friend or whatever. And in the end that the consequence was the baby did not survive and God told him the consequence. So, I mean, that's a very graphic example. And it's not that I'm saying everyone does these things, but it's giving us a good example of that pathway, how when we do the wrong thing, it can lead to another one and another one. We get to realising that we've done the wrong thing to people. We've already got multiples. We've said too many wrong things or done too many wrong things and we then have to own them. And just like David did, and go to God and go to that person with that heart. You break your own heart. I find your own heart is broken when you do these things. And that means I. You know, you want to. You want the other person to forgive you. There's no guarantee God will always forgive you, but we need to be able to have the courage, which is difficult for most people, to go to that person and say, look, this is what I did to you, I am so sorry. And hopefully they will want to resolve it. Often that can happen. Sometimes it doesn't. So this is where we need to, I think, review our life. And when I realised the power of forgiveness and, you know, and wondered why I was carrying these hurts and, you know, the way I kept dialling up events in my life, I started forgiveness. I started to write down all the people, what I'd done and the Holy Spirit will tell you, so this is where we need to do it because it sets you free. I believe the difference, and as we said earlier, that once you're set free from that, it's a powerful thing in being able to be living in the present and not carry the shame, the guilt, yourself, and also not carrying anger and pain about what other people have done to you. There's no other way we can deal with it. I don't believe there is. SPEAKER B Yeah. And that's a very interesting story to take as an example, because we can see in it that it's got a blending of seeking forgiveness for one's own wrongs and misdemeanours, as well as the space for forgiving someone else. Because, I mean, there's nothing much said in that story about Bathsheba's perspective, but, you know, she was wronged and she lost her husband through the wrong. She gained a new one and her son. SPEAKER C Yeah. And she lost her son. And that must have been devastating for any mother who knows what it's like to lose their child. SPEAKER B Absolutely. SPEAKER C She would have been devastated. And that, for her, was a consequence of being part of that action. SPEAKER B Hmm. But you can just see the layers of forgiveness that are necessary, you know, for oneself, for others, and in between each other and to God. It's just multidimensional. But in that case, when the forgiveness was had, there was a lot of healing and restoration. SPEAKER C Absolutely total healing. We are totally healed when we truly forgive. And this is why I encourage people to pray, to ask help, to identify what is it in my life, who is it that I'm still needing to say sorry to? I mean, one of the other factors is some of those people might not be alive or around. You can't contact them. But I get sometimes to write a heartfelt letter to that person if they ever, you know, if they know they're alive and they find them, they can give it to them, but it's taking it to the Lord, it's taking it to God. And I find, I mean, that is because psychology isn't just what we do in our own mind, it's how we connect with others. And I believe we certainly have a spiritual component which we've looked at in other sessions. We've looked at the brain and the spirit, and we have a spiritual connection. So forgiveness is a crucial time to be able to action that forgiveness and restore those relationships. Yes, they're multiple relationships. When you look at it, I mean, if you hurt another person, they're hurting and angry. Whoever they're with, if they're married, they've got children, they all feel that impact. SPEAKER B Yeah. SPEAKER C See, it's because that person's hurting. So this is where it goes beyond just what that person is going through. SPEAKER B Yeah. Now, I think. Did you have any other examples, even, like, from the modern day, for instance, that you could share? SPEAKER C There are plenty if you ever want to look at them online, you know, just calling up current situations of forgiveness. Well, one that would stand out. And I, a lot of people probably remember it was in 2006 in the US, probably the Pennsylvania area, where the amish community live. And they had their own schools set up, which they do, and their children go to that school. And what had happened, there was a man by the name of Charles Roberts who had. He was upset and he was angry and hurting. And what he did, he went and held the school captive and held. There were, I think, 15 children, 26 students at the time. But he held the 15 girls captive and let the others go. And apparently there was a pregnant teacher he let go, I believe, but he ended up, sadly killing. He started shooting, and he killed three of the children. Then he killed himself. And there were two more children that died later on from the injury. So out of those 26, five did not survive. Of course, the police were called. They cordoned off the area. They tried to talk him out, but it failed. And imagine what that did, not just to the amish community, but also what they actually. What it did to his family. If you had a son and that happened, it would be a tragedy. But the amish people, because of their spiritual belief and with their children, they actually supported the mother of Charles was his name, and they went to the funeral. They gave her a lot of support, and a whole lot of them turned up for the funeral service and forgiveness. They were able to forgive because of their beliefs. And they actually then helped the mother after that as well, financially, because the son was a support to her. So it's amazing what you do. You think they would be embittered and angry, they'd want revenge, but they didn't. It's a wonderful example of forgiveness and. SPEAKER B They really showed that in action, didn't they? They were making the choice, but then they were expressing that choice in action in the relationships that they had left to work with to get. SPEAKER C So really we can't afford not to forgive. And as I said, I believe a lot of mental illness is to do with. We don't even know that's what we need to do. So that's partly what I then introduced people to and we look at it, but a lot of people who have mental or emotional illnesses and problems and not surviving life well have often had a lot of early trauma, whether it be in the family, childhood trauma, abuse trauma. They have a lot to forgive and I find if not, they bury it and they actually, then its not healthy. This is when they become ill and they never resolve it because they buried it and dont want to take it out and look at it and heal. But forgiveness has to be part of that healing process. SPEAKER B So it's kind of like bottling up an infection inside and expecting it to go away, but it just brews and simmers and is a constant problem. SPEAKER C Bigger? I'm bigger? Yeah, it poisons the person. SPEAKER B Wow. SPEAKER C There are some other good examples when I was researching this topic, and there are a number of cases where mothers sons have been murdered and they'll go to court and they have a number of cases, this I found in the US particularly, where the mother has forgiven the person who murdered the son and they've actually then supported them, helped them to have a better life, cared for them in some way. Yet you think those mothers would be angry and aggressive, they would want revenge, they'd want, you know, lock them up, throw the key away, put them on death row. But no, they didn't. And some of those young people who committed these murders actually were able to have a much better life. And it's almost like they become part of that family. Wow, that's pretty amazing, isn't it? Can we forgive like that? SPEAKER B Yeah, that really is something profound, isn't it? To be able to just push through a complete atrocity like that and just a horrible experience, push through the loss, the grief, all of those intense emotions that you experienced with that and make that choice to forgive and to pave a better life forward is quite profound, isn't it? SPEAKER C Oh, it is. And this is where you mentioned before, Christ on the cross. Well, God, his father would have gone through the same pain and agony as a mother does. And this is. All of heaven was watching Jesus being murdered, literally. And yet he could say, father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. So can we forgive on the basis that a lot of people do things and they don't realise what they're doing. So understanding, I think, why the person did what they did or having some sort of insight to be able to forgive, to be able to, I guess, reframe it instead of being this extreme one way or the other. And this is what we're going to explore as we go. There's a very good. An author and he wrote a book called forgive and forget. His name is Louis Smeats and he has an excellent little quote that I think really helps us to understand. It says, the only way to heal the pain will not heal itself is to forgive the person who hurt you. So it's just one of those little gems that we can't heal the pain unless we can forgive. SPEAKER B Yeah. And I think obviously there's definitely emotional pain that comes through this, but sometimes even that emotional pain can be expressed as physical pain because your whole body is hurting through this experience, because we have the mind body connection which we've talked about before. Yeah, it's very interesting to consider that and also to consider the hope that forgiveness offers that we can have healing despite terrible things that may happen to us. There is a way that we can. SPEAKER C Have that restoration and people then understand why they're suffering. And you're right, I see people's physical pain and healing is healed as well. Interesting. If they've got a physical and often a medication doesn't work or doctors don't know why, the answer. SPEAKER B Yeah, yeah. Interesting. And so exciting to be able to explore this topic further with you because obviously it's very rich and full and there's so much that we can cover with this in the next few sessions. So thank you so much for introducing it to us today and we look forward to diving into it more over the next few sessions and, yeah, just gaining deeper and deeper insight. So thank you so much. We've been talking with health psychologist Jenifer Skues about forgiveness and we're only just getting started on this topic. Stay tuned for the next episodes where we'll be exploring this subject in more detail so you can really understand and apply it in your life. If you have questions or comments about this programme or if there's a topic you would like us to discuss. Then contact us on healthy abnormalities. And remember to shape your lifestyle as medicine. SPEAKER A You've been listening to Your Lifestyle as Medicine, a production of 3ABN Australia television.