The Benefits and Process of Forgiveness - YLAM240021

SPEAKER A This programme presents ways to optimise health and wellbeing when considering lifestyle changes. Please consult with your health care provider to ensure they are suitable for you. SPEAKER B Hello and welcome. I'm Kaysie Vokurka. Forgiveness is like keeping a house tidy. A clean house has many benefits, but it takes an ongoing process and commitment to keep it that way. Stay with us as we discover more about the benefits of and process of forgiveness. SPEAKER A This is your lifestyle as medicine, a production of 3ABN Australia television. SPEAKER B It's wonderful to have you with us on this programme where we explore ways that you can shape your lifestyle as medicine. Today we will be talking with health psychologist Jenifer Skues once more. Our focus is on the benefits and process of forgiveness, which promises to be a very practical discussion. Welcome once again, Jenifer, so glad you're here. SPEAKER C I'm glad I'm here, too. We need to finish up with something positive. SPEAKER B So true. Last programme we were talking about the struggles that people have with forgiveness and how to forgive. And so I think, yeah, to be. To be finishing this little set on talking about the practicality of how it works is really good. But can you just start off with reminding us some of the benefits of forgiveness? Like, what does it have for us as significant benefits? SPEAKER C Well, this is a very good quote from research at Johns Hopkins Medicine and it says studies have found the act of forgiveness can reap huge rewards for your health, lowering the risk of heart attack, improving cholesterol levels and sleep, and reducing pain, blood pressure and levels of anxiety, depression and stress. And research points to an increase in the forgiveness health connection as you age. So, as you can see, there are multiple. It covers nearly everything when you look at if we don't forgive, our health, mentally, emotionally, physically, and we said spiritually, is going to be jeopardised. I find it's one of a major tool that helps people to recover on all levels. SPEAKER B That's really amazing, isn't it, how it's so connected? And of course, again, we can refer back to the programmes we did on the mind body connection and just how linked we are as human beings, with all the different facets of our being, that in order to enjoy good health, we need to address what is impacting all of those areas. SPEAKER C Absolutely. There's also some other positive benefits I'd like to share. Strengthens your immune system, gives better quality of life, helps you heal and be at peace with yourself and others. And how many people have peace these days? It's a rarity. You're more likely to look after your health as well if you, because when you think about it, it makes sense. Because when we truly forgive, we're living in the present. And when you live in the present, you're going to look after yourself more. It builds bonds and connects you with others to have more fulfilling relationships, which I love. And you also set healthy boundaries where others start to respect you. And if you have been the one that they're having to forgive you for something you did, then it helps them to feel safe and to learn to rebuild those bridges and vice versa. So, yeah, there's a lot of benefits and there are a lot of positives. SPEAKER B Definitely things we want to embrace and enjoy in our lives, aren't they? Yes. SPEAKER C There's a couple of good quotes. I love the quotes. I found plenty of quotes on forgiveness, and this one is by Ben Greenhay, or hi. It says, forgiveness is a sign that the person who has wronged you means more to you than the wrong they have dealt. In other words, I value them far more than what they did to me. SPEAKER B Wow, that's really profound, isn't it? It comes back to that principle of unselfishness, doesn't it? SPEAKER C Yep. And there's another one here by T day d. Jakes. He says, we think that forgiveness is weakness, but it's absolutely not. It takes a very strong person to forgive. Right? So people say, oh, you never forgive. It's weak. It's not. It takes a lot of courage. That's an excuse to say I'm not going to forgive. It's actually the hardest thing to do because. Why? Why do you think it's the hardest thing to do? So if I go to the person who's wronged me and forgive them for what they did, they might turn on me, they might gossip about me, they might vilify me, they might still be angry with me. So to do it to their face is a risk. Most people fear the risk of how they're going to react. SPEAKER B Absolutely. And I guess if you're seeking forgiveness for something you've done, it takes humility, doesn't it, to admit that you've done wrong and it's affected our relationship and you want to make amends. Like, it really does take that some special character traits to do this, doesn't it? SPEAKER C There's another good slant on benefits. I found lots of good things, but this was a doctor, Dick Tibbets, and he wrote a book with Steve Halliday on forgive to live, how forgiveness can save your life. SPEAKER B Wow. SPEAKER C And I believe it's that powerful. And this is a quote about that book. It says, doctor Dick Tibbets is here to say that understanding and practising forgiveness can literally save your life. It's a scientific fact that anger kills. It certainly shortens our life and it kills us spiritually, mentally, emotionally, relationally and physically. So if we want to live, we can't afford not to forgive. SPEAKER B Wow. And so that's really highlighting that forgiveness is the remedy for anger, isn't it? SPEAKER C Oh, absolutely. Because why am I angry with that person? I'm angry because of what they did to me. SPEAKER B Yes. SPEAKER C Right. SPEAKER B They hurt me. They did this and that they did. SPEAKER C They're being cruel and nasty, but it's not about who started it. But sometimes we've done something they're reacting to, they're defending themselves and we see them as a problem. And this is why I think we need to explore forgiveness with people. If we want to forgive someone, then we really need to find out more about why that happened and why I'm feeling so hurt and angry, or vice versa. Because there are often, like I said in one of our sessions with this, is that sometimes a person sees it differently. They didn't mean it the way that we heard it or we personalised it, but they didn't mean it personally. So we need to find out more about. About what happened, why it happened, and engage that person to see if they'll talk to us about it. SPEAKER B Right. So like, obviously we're moving towards now understanding the process of forgiveness. And so would that be the first kind of thing that you would do, that you would be thinking about where the other person was coming from in this forgiveness process? Like, take us through those steps. What does it look like to go through this forgiveness process? SPEAKER C Okay, well, to go through the forgiveness process, so we have to recognise the power and value of forgiveness. I see it as invaluable. I can't afford not to forgive now. When I look at what my life was like pre learning to forgive and having the courage and the humility to do it, and the courage comes from God and the spirit. Jesus gives us that courage. So it's improved my life in ways that I can't imagine. So that is how we can move towards that. Maybe identifying what needs healing. You know, what. What is the healing process for me and who you want to forgive? What is it that happened and who was it and what do I want to forgive? So actually doing a little bit of groundwork before we actually action it, I think is important. And then we have to choose to forgive. And that means, and that's the person who offended us. And that means we've got free will, you know? And I find if you do the wrong thing, and I think I'm right. I think, oh, they deserved it, or I'm right. I find when I work with God, my conscience starts and I start feeling bad. I think, oh, how did I do that? And that's where we're convicted by God's spirit, that, yes, we need to do this, and that gives us the humble spirit we need and opens the heart to be able to go to that person. So it is a preparation process, and I think we need to take stock of what happened and be aware of the cause of our pain and anger, because what are we saying sorry for? And what's the negative impact it's having on you? Because a person might want to know or you might want to share that. And it helps us then to forgive totally and wholeheartedly. And we've got to remember, we've been programmed to do what we've done since childhood. I mean, how many. It's the stiff upper lip and you never say you forgive anyone. It's a sign of weakness. We've got all these messages we now have to step over, and that means to do it properly. It's a humbling process that we go through before we actually approach the person. And maybe looking at whoever hurt you, what's the history as what fuelled their actions? Why do you think they might have treated you that way? Because I find often when you do that, you get better insight and start to think of it differently. And this is where I like what Doctor Dick Tibbett said. He did a testimony and he said that when he realised he needed to forgive, he had to think of a new way of viewing the event, instead of it being black and white, that they've done this to me and I'm really hurt. He started to think of it differently and he referred back to Jesus on the cross. He must have thought about it differently to say, forgive them, but what was it? Because they know not what they do. He could see they didn't understand the gravity of what they were doing to him. So that is what happens. We need to see, did they know what they were doing or why they were doing it? Did they know how much they were going to affect you? And we need to then look at those sorts of things that we can do. So that goes back to history, but understanding them, and maybe they didn't mean it the way I took it, or maybe if they meant it differently, I need to know, because that can be in itself a healing process. SPEAKER B And I guess that's where the principle of unselfishness is coming in, isn't it? Because you're trying to see from the other person's point of view or situation, aren't you? SPEAKER C Oh, absolutely. And it is. That means we have to sort of back down a bit and take stock and do it that way. Now even the person you need to forgive isn't available, still do the process, which we talked a bit about, because really, forgiveness is not just about the other person, it's about us being right, one with God and one with us. We might not have the opportunity to be right with the other person. And that's where I find writing it out is helpful, instead of it being emotionally personal. And that's where, when we're going to have a look at, how do you set boundaries? What are the statements? That's what we can write out and it helps us to step back and depersonalise it. And maybe, well, sometimes that person is no longer there because they've passed away. Sometimes a person has moved, you don't know where they are, but you might make an effort to find them because you really want to do this and you might do it in writing. If they're a long way away, you don't know how else. So there's lots of things we can do. We've got to go through that process of doing the soul searching, sorting out what really happened. Can I see it differently? How do I want to approach the person? I want to do it, you know, with a humble heart and I want to show that I really care about them. So we've got to do that to get to the point. We can then approach the person. If not, we'll just do it the way we always did it, with a bit of maybe aggression or, you know, that we do it incorrectly. So let's have a look at the boundaries factor. And there's a very good three point process that I work with, with people, whether they be individually, in families, at work, at home, relationships, friends, whatever. And the first one is identifying the behaviour. What did they do? So we need to identify, because if we're going to talk to the person, we need to know what it is they did, because sometimes they don't remember. What do you mean? I don't remember doing that or I don't think I did that. We've got to do that, but there are good ways to do it. So we'll go through the three process and then there's ways you can verbalise it, state the effect it has on you. Sometimes we need to do that, sometimes we don't. You know, I felt really hurt with what you said the other day, for example, and you might ask questions, I find even things like, did you mean it that way? Give them what we call the benefit of the doubt there, to give them that opportunity and let them know if that happens again. This is how you would prefer they tell you. So we give them a way of resolving it, what you would prefer. And sometimes it's negotiating the dialogue, like with a married couple. Well, you know, when you say that to me, I feel attacked. Can you say it like this? And you can give an example. So it's modifying the language to present it in the right way. So they're the three main prongs. So I don't know if you've got. SPEAKER B And those. Yeah, yeah. So those. Those three things, then, that this is a way of approaching someone to seek forgiveness in order to restore that relationship. Yes, of course. It's still leaving the possibility that the other party may not want to cooperate with that, isn't it? SPEAKER C That's right. And that's. But we know we've given it the best we can. We approach it, we've done it from the right reason. We are wanting to apologise from the heart. You know, it's not just lip service, as they say. But then there are ways, once you approach the person, how you're going to talk to them. And there's a good, what we call a face saving way of doing it, so pointing it out in a way that if they don't want to acknowledge it, they might not. They say, oh, no, I didn't realise I did that. But maybe they do and you'll know if they did know, they did realise it, because they'll treat you. They won't do it again. They'll treat you differently. So some people don't want to talk any further. They've taken it on board. And to do that is asking questions. Have you noticed a statement. I noticed that the other day you seemed to be upset when we got together, or you seemed angry. So we can actually then say, when you spoke to me, I thought you were angry with me. Might be an example. Or do you realise. Do you realise when you talk to me in that tone of voice that I feel hurt? Because we can add in that effect then, if we want to. Okay. But when you do it as well, when you did that to me the other day, that's a very challenging. That's going to be an aggressive stance. SPEAKER B Yeah. People will get a bit defensive in return. At least that's the natural inclination, isn't it? SPEAKER C We start with the other day I saw you and you said this to me. Well, immediately that person's going to go on the defensive. So we want to do it in a thought provoking way that gives them the opportunity to think about it, to say, or they might want to say, oh, yeah, I did say it that way. I'm not sure why, but I'll think about it. So it opens the conversation by not attacking the person, by giving them the option of not feeling they're being, what can I say? Pigeon holed in a way where they've not been put on the spot and they don't know what to say. SPEAKER B And I guess in order to do that, like, in order to take an approach that's very, I guess, amicable, it's going to be more winsome. You really do have to thought through it carefully and have complete control of your own emotions. Otherwise you could easily make some statements that are a bit like they've got some prongs on them, then you would regret that afterwards. SPEAKER C Oh, absolutely. Say it in a way that's going to give them a bit of a guilt message. SPEAKER B Yes. Yeah. SPEAKER C And that. And I've done things. Oh, you're trying to make me feel guilty tongue in cheek when they bring something up and they go, oh, no. So that's okay then, you know, so we can do things that can respond. You're huge in humor's a very good one, to make light of it, not laughing at them, but if they say something and you can sort of smile about it. So I hadn't thought about it that way and do it with that humorous side. SPEAKER B Yeah. SPEAKER C So. But it's definitely an art and we have to learn how to do it. Yeah. I mean, if we don't. If we don't do it, there's a consequence. But if we do do it and the person doesn't want to know about it or says they will change it and they don't, there's got to be a consequence. So that means you might have to talk to them again. If they continue to do it that way and you've talked to them, the consequence eventually might be that you won't be spending time with them. SPEAKER B And that's a very good point because, like, often there can be situations and even situations where there's, I don't know, violence or abuse involved or something like that, it can be very difficult because if the one person has tried to reconcile as much as possible, but then the other person doesn't. But the other person also doesn't change and keeps doing that harm. Like, what does a person do then? Like, how do they. Is there a place for protecting themselves and still be forgiving? Like, there's got to be something there that's important. SPEAKER C But that's why I was setting a consequence. It might be, look, you said you wouldn't do this and this is, you know, you've done it again. In fact, you've done it several times. And I don't want to maintain a friendship where I'm feeling hurt all the time, you know, so you're giving a consequence that if it happens again, like, give them the option. If it happens again, I won't be phoning you, or I won't, you know, I won't want to spend time with you. So we give a consequence. SPEAKER B I like how you put that. It's a consequence. Yeah, that's really helpful. SPEAKER C Yeah. Without going, oh, I'll never speak to you again. That's. Again, aggression. We're hurt because they didn't respond. SPEAKER B Yes. SPEAKER C So this is where you're right, we've got to be very careful emotionally. And if we're hurting, this is where I find actually writing it down, looking at it and maybe that past, present and future we talked about, where we might look at it, pray about it and say, look, why am I still feeling hurt? What do I need to do about it before I can actually fully resolve it with that person? And if they don't want to, we have to accept it. If they're willing to resolve it, then we can look at how we would like them to talk to us. Because the word coding and the tone of voice, and that goes back to past history. And if we were struggling because of the way people treated us then, and they have that tone, we're reacting to what happened back there. So this is why we sort of might say, well, if you can just say it, we can talk about it, or if you can just say it in a kinder way, for example, and have examples, I think that's helpful. SPEAKER B So what I'm hearing, as you're explaining about all these different ways to approach forgiveness and go through this process of forgiveness, it seems like we need to allow ourselves time. Like, however much time we need, really. It probably is different for different people to really go through. Think about it, recognise the emotions we have, recognise what's been done to us for what it is, put it on paper, like, do whatever it takes to really get clarity and understanding of what's happened in order to then move forward successfully. SPEAKER C Yeah. Yes, absolutely. It's like treating them in the way you want to, with kindness and compassion, because that's what Jesus does. He's our model. Even if they've done the wrong thing or they have been mean, cruel and nasty to you. But this is where I find when you go to the person and you point out the problem and you talk about it, sometimes people are relieved because they don't want to keep doing it and they might be because of something you said that was the problem for them. They've responded that way that you can both resolve. But I find once you resolve it, there's a heart connection kicks in, the spirit kicks in. And I've seen people kiss and hug up, hug and kiss and make up sort of thing. But you feel that connection. It's not just. Again, it's not just doing it because that's what you're meant to do. Yeah. SPEAKER B So it can really have a powerful effect to restore relationships, but probably even enhance it because you've built a new understanding between each other and can grow from there. SPEAKER C Absolutely. It is a commitment to change and we're the ones who have to change at this time. We have to make that change. If the other person isn't doing it, we also have to practise. So maybe if you've been deeply hurt, maybe look at something not as deep as that hurt, maybe something that's a bit more trivial. You can start with or with someone where they might have hurt you, but it's not as risky to do that. Okay, so it's, it's picking, as they say, pick your battles. But it's like picking the way you want to do it and start small and start in maybe current time when someone hurts you think, oh, okay, well, let's. How can I present that knowing what behaviour was it and how can I talk to them and how did it affect me go through? That process we've talked about is very powerful. SPEAKER B And I'm wondering also is there a place for actually doing, I guess, practical acts of kindness or service for someone else who's wronged us as a way of helping to cultivate a forgiving and loving attitude in our, in our own selves? Like, is that, is that also something we can do? SPEAKER C Well, I think that's very powerful because if the person's upset with you and doesn't, you know, wants to do that, then what you're doing by doing acts of kindness, but you have to do an act of kindness because it's coming from the heart, not because I'll fix it by doing that. SPEAKER B Okay. Yeah. SPEAKER C And I've done that in the past where, oh, I'll do something nice for them and that they'll be all right then instead of actually truly resolving it, you know? And yes, I appreciate what you do for them, but it hasn't fixed the problem. SPEAKER B Yeah, right. SPEAKER C The problem is still just a band aid. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I think when you truly forgive, adding in acts of kindness because you've resolved it reinforces and sets up because you've got to find trust again. If trust is being good, so then showing you're transparent and you meant it and you follow it up with things you do and you don't treat them like that or they don't treat you like that again, because once trust is broken, it has to be rebuilt. And that's where the healthy boundaries and forgiveness comes into it. SPEAKER B Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Any other sort of strategies or things that you'd like to share that are helpful for this process? SPEAKER C Well, I think as a Christian to do things prayerfully, to always seek God's grace and God's help, not just for you, but for the other person and prepare the way by, before you approach and pray, ask God to be with you, ask him to let your holy spirit heal hearts and help you both transform. So you're praying on behalf of the other person. And I find that works wonderfully because we're now humbling ourself and we're relying on, as you talked about before, that power on high that can really help us. And if we've done the wrong thing and we've got to approach a person to see if they will forgive us, then we need to be humble, need to be able to do it the right way. SPEAKER B Yeah, absolutely. SPEAKER C There's a good quote from Alexander Pope and he pointed out to ur is human, to forgive is divine because we're still human. We're going to make mistakes. So don't think you fail. Go, oh, what have I learned now? I've just done it again, or I need to go to that person. Be kind to yourself as well because it does take time. And actually, as we talked about rewiring and changing that brain. SPEAKER B Yeah. And the whole discussion we're talking about is that forgiveness is a process. It's not like a once off thing that you, oh, I've forgiven them and then suddenly your life is all fixed and it's actually on so many levels, a changing, a growing developing new attitudes, new thought patterns. SPEAKER C Absolutely. SPEAKER B And as you say, the more you do it, the more that that can be cultivated and be a part of your life. SPEAKER C So true. And one of the other things is really that if you're struggling to forgive, seek some counselling from a counsellor you trust. And that has is, you know, comes from the right level. You might seek pastoral counselling, you might find a christian counsellor. A lot of the work I do is around this, but I can't see everyone, obviously. That's why I do all this sort of thing. And I love to teach and run programmes on it all because. And I've done the programme on this before, so this is where doing it that way is powerful. There's a quote I want to wind up with is because we're about to wind up from Mother Teresa. And, I mean, she had a very humble spirit and she says, if we really want to love, we must learn how to forgive. We cannot love without forgiving. SPEAKER B Yeah. Part and parcel together. Yeah, well, that's a beautiful thought to finish on and, yeah, thank you for sharing all of those really practical strategies of how we can start going through this process of forgiveness and cultivate that in our everyday lives and, yeah, start to reap those benefits we spoke about at the beginning, you know, the restored relationship, restored health, restored well being and just being able to enjoy life in the present so much more. So, yeah. Thank you so much for sharing today, Jenifer. We've been discussing the benefits and process of forgiveness with health psychologist Jenifer Skues. Forgiveness is very challenging, but it's a choice and from my experience, the blessings that it brings can surprise you. I trust that these programmes have helped enhance your understanding of forgiveness and how to practise it so you can reap its benefits in your own life. If you have questions or comments about this programme, or if there's a topic you would like us to discuss, then contact us on health@3abnaustraliaorg dot au and remember to shape your lifestyle as medicine. SPEAKER A You've been listening to Your Lifestyle as Medicine, a production of 3ABN Australia television.